This series is a collaboration between writer MJ Pack and Amy Venezia. 

The following is purely speculation and in no way should be considered concrete facts unless future evidence proves otherwise.

Throughout our (albeit short, so far) journey, we have taken a lot of suggestions for subjects when it comes to our conversations. Sometimes, the name hits me with a flat NO. Sometimes, it screams YES! Sometimes the subject comes to Amy first, sometimes I see them in a dream. But always, always, there is a reason for who we choose to speak to.

Kurt Cobain was a name that wouldn’t stop coming up. It was suggested over, and over, and over. He is still, to this day, desperately loved and feverishly worshiped. Yet no matter the demand, I can’t suggest a subject to Amy until I feel it’s… right.

It’s hard to describe what that means. “Right.” But there’s a definite sensation in my heart and soul when we settle on our next dearly departed to speak to.

A few weeks ago, I settled on Kurt.

Amy and I are both up front in the fact that we hadn’t, prior to this session, felt much of a connection to him. Any connection, really. Our generations both managed to miss his influence by a gap of merely a few years — she was in a household who listened to only Christian music, I was too young to appreciate his genius. Obviously, in later years, we were both made aware of how much he meant to the world. But we didn’t experience it first-hand.

This isn’t like Marilyn, who continues to touch me daily with her exceptional spirit. This isn’t like Prince, who spoke to Amy as he made his rounds on his posthumous road trip. This is an entirely different session altogether.

This is a call for action.

And so, bear with me as this presents itself in an unfamiliar way compared to past sessions. I am just the messenger, but I will try to share it the way it’s meant to be shared.

Let’s begin.

I have a new MacBook since departing my previous job at Thought Catalog to embark on my own as an independent writer. Because of this, I lost the former software I used to record our conversations. Amy has already informed me via text message that this session will be different and we need to launch right in, no questions, just let her (and Kurt) talk. Therefore I’m fumbling a little as I try to figure out the new software.

I do one, two, three tests before I figure out that it does indeed work as it should, perhaps even better than the previous program. To be safe, Amy and I have both set up backup plans by recording the audio on our respective phones. Luckily, the program works as intended, and that’s why I’m able to transcribe our conversation today.

I’m trying to be sure I get it right because this is one of the first times that Amy, herself, has pushed off the conversation. Usually it’s me, whether due to work issues, health problems, or just plain running out of time that I postpone a session. This time, Amy pushes it back not once, not twice, but three times.

The next thing that let me know this wasn’t going to be a typical conversation was Amy’s demeanor in general. I have mentioned how, in the past, she can tend to take on our subject’s personality. Not the whole time, no, just in bursts: Marilyn’s bubbly joy, Diana’s subtle wit, JonBenet’s childlike innocence. But this time was different.

At a certain point later in this conversation, Amy says this, verbatim:

Amy: So I’m doing this for him. And I’m not gonna be a pussy about it. I’m gonna do it.

Um. I have been in contact with Amy for quite some time, and while I myself might have a mouth like a sailor, she doesn’t. In fact, I can’t even recall the last time she cursed in front of me.

This will be important.

So now, let’s set the stage.

Amy lets out a long, low sigh. She sounds nervous. She’s never been nervous before. I ask her to adjust her laptop screen so I can see her better.

Amy: So this is, um, the most intense we have ever done.

Me: Okay.

Amy: I’ll go ahead and tell you, um, that I’m… overwhelmed. By… I didn’t get any sleep last night at all. I, um… I just want to prepare you. Because… I had asked for, permission. I’d asked my guides if I had permission to say things, and I’m just gonna say it.

Me: Okay. (laughs) I can act as editor!

Amy: (laughs) Um, the first thing that… I want to get into is… so I told you this format would be different, because he’s come forward with so much. He wants me to go ahead and say that, and then after that, question/answer. Going into conversational about it. I want to tell you that what happened the first time he came to me which was, a week or two ago, which was after we had decided we were going to do this with him… it was nighttime. And I… instantly felt him. And see, the thing is, I didn’t grow up with… when his music came out, I was listening to Christian music, we came from a very religious home. We didn’t listen to quote-unquote “sexual” — (pauses, laughs)” — sexual. Um, “secular” music. It was… Christian music or nothing. So I didn’t follow him. And after I got out of that, his music was never anything I would’ve listened to. And he’s okay with that, so. (laughs) So I know nothing about him. The only thing I will say is any time I came across a picture of him, in years past, I’ve always thought to myself: “That is a very sensitive human being.” Um. I could see, instantly, his sensitivity. And instantly… that he was a higher consciousness, so to speak. Not perfect, obviously, but a person whose thought processes were not like the average… person.

Me: Okay.

Amy: So I’m in bed, and I’m about to go to sleep. And he comes forward. I’m like, “Okay. This isn’t how we usually do it. We usually wait until we’re doing the conversation, but I’m willing to hear what you have to say, willing to see what you have to show me.”

Here is where the conversation diverts from our normal pattern. I will just include what Amy told me, in full, below. Brace yourself: there is a lot.

The most bizarre thing — I’ve experienced bizarre stuff but this was, truly, bizarre — I look up, because I can feel and I can hear, and my bed faces the great room in my place. It’s a long room with doors that you can open. I look out towards the couch, and I see this apparition coming towards me, of a man. In a suit. A grey suit, I see the vest underneath it, a grey suit. There’s a pocket watch, on a chain? And… no head. There’s no head. I can’t… all I know, I feel it’s a man. I can see the suit. There’s no head.

And I instantly freaked out. Then I start thinking about it. I realized, okay, I know that’s him, because I can feel him. And I don’t feel any fear with that, because I can feel his spirit, and there’s nothing to fear in that. But what he was showing me… freaked me out.

So I laid there for a little while longer, was still in meditative state. Again, came back fully conscious, looked to the right and he’s standing by my bed — I know that sounds nuts, but that’s the truth of what I experienced! — no head, in a suit, and he whispers in my ear: “The suit killed me.”

And I’m like, “Okay… what does that mean?” And then I realized what he was saying. When somebody says ‘the suit’, what does the suit mean to you? I’ve heard that phrase a million times. Greed, a corporation.

He showed me so much that night, and I’m just gonna spew out everything he showed me. And this needs to be all documented and put out there. He wants it out there. Um, he was telling me that… at the end, of his life, he literally… had grown to hate almost everything in his life. Courtney. Uh, what he had become. What it represented. The people around him. Even the fans. The people that were… so crazy into his persona? “Missing the whole point,” he said. Missing the whole point of… what it was about. What he was trying so desperately to float was just drowning before his eyes. Because all of this… shitstorm was going on.

And so he shared with me… when Courtney got pregnant with Frances — or, Frances? Yes, Frances — his first instinct, and he feels bad about this, but his first thoughts were he was seriously doubting it was his. He thought in his head, “I’m not sure if this is mine.” Um. But then, as soon as she was born, he knew instantly that she was his. Um. But he always questioned — he explained to me, that I had to understand that Courtney was like a drug. She was like a drug that… was good until it went bad.

So if you can imagine a drug that makes you feel all of these things, but then you have that one horrible trip? That is what happened. And what was happening. He explained — (laughs) and I went back and forth with him about this — he was telling me that someone, and I feel like it’s her? He was telling me someone used to say his skin smelled like something, and I could’ve sworn he kept telling me ‘butter.’ And so I said “Butter doesn’t have a scent!” (laughs) And he was like “Oh yes it does!” And so I was like “Okay, so you’re telling me…” Someone used to just smell his skin, and there was a joke about what his skin smelled like. And I interpreted it as butter, I am not sure if that is the case but… someone out there knows the skin thing.

He then allowed me to hear a fight. I then audibly — M.J., audibly — heard a fight. Between him and Courtney Love. I heard her screaming. She was calling him “bitch.” She was saying to him — she was erratically hysterical, and saying to him: “You want to take it all?” Uh — the key phrase, which still makes my hair stand up — was… “This isn’t all I can do. This isn’t all I can do, bitch. You want to take it all?”

I’m sure, again, that anyone who witnessed their explosive fights, that he told me about… probably can probably say she used to call him “bitch” because she thought he was spineless. And that’s what… I heard from him as well. She just ended up killing everything in him. Including… him.

And so. He shows me all that.

And I wake up, and my head is spinning from it. He comes, throughout the next couple weeks, checking in but not showing me anything. And so I keep asking him over and over again, “I really… before I do Conversations With Dead People… I want to know. Did you kill yourself? Or were you murdered? I mean, I want to know. I will not — I WILL NOT go forward with anything unless you show me with absolute clarity what happened to you. And I put that on the line for him.

[At this point, Amy shakes her head, both laughing and crying. She wipes at her forehead, then stares off into the distance as she goes on.]

Last night. He came to me, um. Probably the most vivid — and I probably will cry during this process — that a spirit has ever come to me. It was the most intense thing that I have ever experienced. It was very difficult for me because I don’t like going into violence. I don’t like the feelings behind that.

[Amy tears up, her voice choked with emotion.]

I don’t like having to feel… last moments of people’s lives. And usually when I’m working a missing person’s case, or connecting with a spirit who has been traumatized in that way, I usually STOP right there. And I allow my… senses and my logical mind to piece it all together instead of having to take it on and feel it in myself.

Last night was… intense. I literally woke up and jumped out of bed because I felt something being shoved into my mouth.

[Amy covers her face. She is crying. She wipes tears from her cheeks.]

So I’m doing this for him. And I’m not gonna be a pussy about it. I’m gonna do it.

Kurt Cobain was murdered.

He did not take his own life.

He’s explaining to me that, when he first passed, it took him a while to… to piece together. To figure out what had happened to him. Because he was so… he was in a daze. And he said — he wants you to understand, he wants everyone to understand that time… is not what we consider time to be. So “How long did it take to figure out what happened to you?” That doesn’t exist. Once we’re out of this… dimension. And so what seems like years to us could be… five seconds. It’s just… forget the time aspect of it.

He also had to go through the evolutionary phase of… there’s so much he didn’t want to face. So he’s done the work to face it. And he wants to come forward. Not because he — he — you know, he’s let go of those people, is what he’s saying. He’s let go of those people. He’s let go of all of it.

The thing that means the most to him is what his daughter thinks. And the fact that his daughter feels that she left him is… too much.

So I’m gonna tell you everything, I wrote it all down last night. In the middle of the night, that he kept showing me over and over again. Um. He was explaining to me, and this is how he talked, he talked in like, um… he’s like “Whatever. Examine. Like. Then you become it. Then you touch a number of people during it.” This is how he’s talking about his whole existence, and how it started from start to finish. How quickly it happened, his own responsibility and how he just allowed… even though he never allowed himself inside to become it, he was just… carried away by all these people.

He wants it to be understood that… money — “the suit” — was the bottom line. You gotta understand, you’ve got managers. You’ve got A&R people. You’ve got band members. You have… your wife. You have… all of these people who are at the teat of what you’ve been creating, right? And now — he wants band members taken out of that.

Those people? Those people’s best interest, they didn’t care. They only cared about the money they were receiving from it. So he wants that to be understood. That when people jumped on [redacted] train, it only was because they were jumping on the money train. Okay?

There are three people involved. We can figure out who one of them is. The other two people — the other two people I’m not naming. I will go ahead and just say everything I saw and people can just piece those together.

So, he was showing me… so I’m just gonna explain the crime scene and what happened to him. He showed me, and was showing me, a gun pointed at him. A revolver handgun, not a shotgun. Two people in the room. Two men.

One, very close to him. A close acquaintance. Basically, they’re having this conversation. I’m hearing it. I’m hearing bits of it, I’m not hearing the whole thing. This close acquaintance is saying, “Man, you know, it’s — it’s, basically the end of the road.” I can just hear the dude saying “I’m sorry, man. I’m sorry, man.”

The dude holding the gun — is a BAD dude. Hired. Just a bad dude. Um. And experienced in killing people. Um. So. Kurt was allowing me to feel that he knew that it was it — and he kinda was like, “Fuck it. Fuck it.”

He’s telling me that there is something out there that is on tape of him talking about, um, a time in his life where if he was going to kill himself he might as well be high. Or something along those lines. Um. That was taken and… used in all this propaganda to… create a scene. Okay?

Let me back up. He also wants to explain that the week before he died, he faced a, uh, a trip. He used the word “trip” and he used the word “March” and he finally faced it. And he started understanding — got very paranoid, started understanding that there were things in motion.

He knew what was happening. He knew things were in motion. He knew he was in danger. He… started realizing that there really wasn’t anyone around him that he could trust, or that he needed to figure out who was around him that he could trust.

He told me that him going to rehab was so that he could get away. From her. And have the time there to start making his plans for how he was going to… get away. From the whole situation in order to break it down in order to understand who he could trust, what was going on, how he could protect himself best. All of these things.

He was going to leave.

He wasn’t leaving his family, he was going to leave everything. Leave the state, leave the country, to take this time to get away from her — and get away from the craziness of the situation — and piece together who in his life he could trust and what he needed to do next to save himself, honestly.

So I want that to be made clear that he knew what was coming. He understood that he was in danger. Okay?

Fast forward to what happened to him.

Gunpoint. Telling him: “You have a choice.” I’m paraphrasing this, these are not exact words. “You’re not gonna feel a thing.”

[Amy sighs deeply.]

It’s terrible.

It was done in bits. There was heroin injected into him that was not enough to kill him, um. It was enough to make him… out of it, but he was still… aware. He grabbed the shotgun. There was a man down at the bottom. Near the end of the shotgun, where the trigger was, and there was someone above his head who actually placed the shotgun in his mouth.

While they were doing this, he grabbed his hand onto it. And he — not fighting, in the sense — this is fuckin’ it, this it it… he’d kind of resorted to that, but the fight or flight thing kicks in with any human being, so…

He grabbed it. And I could see —

He showed me a flash. Of the eyes. One of the last things he saw.

[Amy is fully crying now.]

Fuckin’ dude — and this is the one who was close to him, over his head — and I could see the upside down. I could see the forehead, and his eyes. And that’s what I could see.

And he (Kurt) grabbed onto it (the shotgun) and the dude down at the bottom pulled the trigger but it wasn’t until —

[Amy stops, rubs her face with her hands.]

They kept injecting him. Because, it, he… it was struggle, and it wasn’t working. And it wasn’t happening the way they wanted it to happen, they wanted him to be… less lucid than what he was. And they injected him and it wasn’t what they wanted it to be so they injected him again. With heroin. And, um, and he had grabbed onto that, and they did it.

Now, they went so fast. Um. Getting everything set up, put together, putting everything back — I’m just seeing franticness — “Man, we gotta get outta here, we gotta get outta here…”

[Amy is genuinely upset. She takes a moment, wrings her hands together. She is still crying.]

I’m trying to make sure I’m not missing anything.

Okay. Last night, he also showed me, um. Frances sitting on a bench. It looked like a park bench? Or some kind of bench. 13 or 14 years old. And he showed me sitting right next to her with his arm around her and she was crying.

So he’s trying to show me he’s always with her. He just… he’s never left her. And I want to say that at the beginning of when I first started communicating with him, I was very shocked at how… I don’t know if it was because he didn’t trust me? Or if it was because he didn’t…

To me, it felt like it was a part of him that was okay with things being the way that they were because [otherwise] that meant that she was gonna lose another one. Meaning…


This is what he wants put out there. He wants this. He told me this with his own words.

It really sickens him the obsession…

He appreciates the love and the respect that everyone has for him. It’s not that he’s being disrespectful for this. It’s just he wants everyone to take that energy of worship and passion and, and putting him up on this, and doing that — he wants everyone to take that and for something proactive to be done.

And what he wants to be done is for EVERY SINGLE ONE of these people who follow him — that were touched by his death — that were touched by the music — to petition the Seattle Police Department to reopen this case.

He wants a REAL petition going around the Internet, signed by thousands and thousands of people.

If you say you believe — and that you love him, and respect him and follow him — even if you don’t believe he was killed, if you believe he committed suicide. Even if you don’t believe that this is possible, the afterlife, even if you believe this is a crock of shit of him coming forward. No matter what you believe: have the Seattle Police Department reopen the case.

And let it be done to where it’s reexamined. 

Don’t be violent. Don’t be disrespectful — he said all these things. Don’t be crazy about it. Do it the right way. Do it the responsible way. Get a petition. And everybody sign it.

Contact the Seattle Police Department. Ask them to reopen the case. Don’t stop until it’s done. Call them. Write them. Email them. 

That’s what he wants.

He says it’s time. It’s time.

So that’s… what. He showed.

There was more that followed this part of our admittedly intense conversation. Perhaps, some day, we can release the information there.

I understand how frustrating it can be when we can’t release more specific details. Please know that it is such delicate work, especially when dealing with members of the living.

As someone who also lost her father at a young age, I would never, ever want to make Frances Bean uncomfortable. If this session reaches her, I hope it gives her some peace, and I would gladly convene with her personally for further details. Otherwise, I think the most important part of the conversation is plain as day.

This time, we don’t have a message. We have a mission.

So I have started a petition, just like Kurt asked me to.

Here it is.

Please share it with your friends. It doesn’t mention the supernatural or our conversations or anything — it is very straightforward, asking that the death of Kurt Cobain be reinvestigated.

I’m going to start sharing this everywhere I can. Kurt Cobain fandoms, Twitter, everywhere. It’s a message that needs to get out.

I can’t promise we’ll change anything. But, at the very least, I can promise I’ll try.

Because if I know anything about Kurt, it was important to him that we try.

You can find M.J. Pack on her website and Twitter

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